The Unique Incentive Strategy That Lemlist is Using to Reach $3 Million ARR in 2020

Nathan Latka:

Hello everyone, my guest today is Guillaume Moubeche. If you haven’t heard of him or his company, he’s running a tool called Lemlist, which is growing extremely quick. He just broke two million bucks in ARR, maybe north of that.

Nathan Latka:

It’s a platform that helps sales teams book more meetings and close more deals with their prospects. In less than two and a half years, again, they’ve grown that team to 8,000-plus customers without any funding, totally bootstrapped. He’s also the founder of the Sales Automation Family, which he calls the coolest and biggest Facebook community about sales automation. Guillaume, you ready to take us to the top?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Of course I am, Nathan. Thanks for having me.

Nathan Latka:

You do have a bit of a cool factor to you. You stay very close to customers. You record videos in that group every day. You engage with them. How do you have so much time to stay so engaged with 8,000 customers?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, I’m not alone, first of all. So I have a great team helping me out, but I think for me it has always been important that our users are really successful, so I invest all my time and energy in that specific purpose, and I don’t do anything else. So I try to say no to many things that are irrelevant to helping our customers, and so my focus is very narrow.

Nathan Latka:

What’s the number one thing that you get asked about that you have to just continue to decline over and over again?

Guillaume Moubeche:

I guess I keep helping. I don’t do that for all of our customers, but I keep helping people, if they are in need, for advice on how to set up their outbound pipeline. So that’s something where I’m doing free consulting sessions, depending on some customers where I could just spend maybe either 20 minutes recording a video for a customer, going through his cold email templates, see how things are set up, all these type of things, and always trying to help. But I think it’s also part of the DNA of the team, so now I’m not the only one doing this and it’s easier to scale, I would say.

Nathan Latka:

What does the team look like today? How many folks?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So we were 12 people when we reached two million in ARR, and in September 2020 we’re going to be 19 people.

Nathan Latka:

Okay. So 12 right now. How many engineers?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Engineer team is my two co-founder plus two more people, three more people now, so it’s five total.

Nathan Latka:

Five total. Interesting. And do you have any quota carrying sales reps or no? They just focus on helping your customers?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So we have 2% in the support that I’m going to call outreach experts. We have one sales SDR who’s in charge of outbound prospecting, and then the rest is more growth and marketing, so content and helping users to basically find the best resources and be successful in their sales prospecting.

Nathan Latka:

Do any of them carry a quota, or no?

Guillaume Moubeche:

What do you mean? For the sales rep?

Nathan Latka:

A sales target. Yeah.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Our SDR, she has a quota of deal that she need to close.

Nathan Latka:

Okay. So there’s one quota carrying person on your team?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. And then, it’s more like we have objectives and goals, but based on the monthly gross. So everyone is basically incentivized on the same goal, which is MRR.

Nathan Latka:

How do you incentivize that? It’s not easy to get these incentive structures right.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So we do that per quarter. We do that exactly the same way as we incentivize sales team. Because I know a lot of people, they’re trying to put bonuses on number of qualified leads, marketing qualified leads, sales qualified leads, but I think this is a bit bullshit. I think it’s too complicated. And I think people tend to always optimize things based on…

Guillaume Moubeche:

So for example, if I tell you, “You need to reach that amount of marketing qualified leads.”, what you’re going to try to do is book, let’s say, as many meeting you can for your sales team. However, the quality of the lead is not going to be that great.

Guillaume Moubeche:

However, if everyone is focused on growing the MRR, and then we set up the MRR goal at the beginning of each quarter, now everyone is focused on one thing, which is revenue and revenue for us equals profit. So everyone goes to the same direction, and I think it’s a better way to incentivize. So we have different levels and each level you reach, you will get a bonus and then you have higher levels and higher bonuses.

Nathan Latka:

Can you walk us through this a bit more? So June, end of the second quarter, you guys, it sounds like, broke that two million run rate right around there. That’s an easy number to talk to. So your team meeting at the end of Q2, when you’re setting goals for Q3, what is the new MRR target for Q3, Q4?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So our goal essentially was to do 5X from December 2019 up to December 2020. So the monthly goal, I think it’s around 14 to 16% each month, month-over-month growth rates. So I think it’s 16% to reach 5X, more or less. And basically, this is a goal for the year, so we don’t really adapt anything.

Nathan Latka:

Ah.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So the growth, for example, if it’s faster, and then we cut it per quarter. So for example, if the growth was faster in, let’s say, I don’t know, April and March, or in Q2, if the growth is faster than 16%, then the goal at the end of Q3, it would still be the same as I decided at the beginning of the year.

Nathan Latka:

I see. So what was revenue in December of 2019?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So in December 2019, we were around a bit less than a million.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah, yeah.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So I think it was 600k or something like that. So yeah, it’s six times. Yeah. It’s something like, yeah, 600K ARR, or something.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah. So you came on in March of last year and you were at about 250,000 in MRR.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah.

Nathan Latka:

So through last year you 3Xed, or maybe more than 3Xed, and what you’re saying is between December of last year, when you were at 600 in ARR and two or three months from now, in December of this year, that’s crazy, by the way. Four months left in the year, but end of this year, you want to be up in the 2.5, three million ARR range.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the goal.

Nathan Latka:

And what’s the reward? How do you incent the team? So let’s say everyone hits the goal. What’s the reward?

Guillaume Moubeche:

They get a bonus on their salary and a big smile.

Nathan Latka:

I like the smile part. But there are people that are going to listen and some of them are going to want to copy you, because they’re going to like them model. They’re going to agree with you that MQL things are bullshit to de-incentivize these things.

Nathan Latka:

So let’s not talk about any one of your individual employees, but let’s say I was one of your employees and my base was 50,000 a year, just hypothetically, and we hit this goal. What would I make on top of the 50K?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So the goal is basically, let me say, it’s 25. So it’s every quarter you can get 25% of your salary, of your monthly salary.

Nathan Latka:

Every quarter I can get… So what would that mean? Let’s make my salary easier. Let’s say it’s a hundred grand. The numbers are just easier. So what would that actually mean?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So it would mean that, so if it’s a hundred grand, it means, let’s say 120, so it’s 10 K each month.

Nathan Latka:

Yup.

Guillaume Moubeche:

It would essentially mean that, per year, if you reach your goal, you can get a bonus a bit higher than 10% at the end of the year.

Nathan Latka:

Got it. So-

Guillaume Moubeche:

If you meet your goal each quarter, the total would be a bit more than 10%. So a bit more than 10K.

Nathan Latka:

I see. I see. I see. So if I help the team hit our 15 to 16% monthly growth goal or 5X year-over-year goal, I will make an extra, maybe 12 grand on my 120K salary.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Nathan Latka:

Interesting.

Guillaume Moubeche:

And the only reason I would readjust the goal is if the first two quarter we wouldn’t hit the target. So for example, because I know Q1 is really strong. Q2 is also really strong for us. I know Q3 is sometimes a bit less strong because you have July and August where those are the months where we sometimes see small companies, especially cheap French bastard that usually decide to churn and come back in September.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So it’s usually a bit less gross in July, August, more people on holiday. But then, I know September is strong, and then again, December is a bit less strong, but I know October and November are really strong as well.

Nathan Latka:

Interesting. Okay. So how many customers are you now serving today?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So regarding our customers, so we launched on AppSumo, so essentially, that was our, let’s say, bootstrap round of funding. And at that time we had, so I would say 8,000-something customers. And basically now, you would add, so those were not recurring, those were mainly lifetime user, in recurring, we have more than 3000 companies paying on a monthly basis, and total customer is more than 10,000.

Nathan Latka:

Got it. Yeah, so 3000 recurring, then you have five, six, seven, 8,000 or so from that AppSumo lifetime deal.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Latka:

I see.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan Latka:

Did you uncover any strategy that was particularly effective in converting the AppSumo one-timers to true recurring plans? A lot of people that go through AppSumo, the ones that love it are the ones that convert into recurring well. The ones that hate it are the ones that don’t end up converting well.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. I think it’s very tough to convert a lifetime deal user into a paying customer. The only way to do that would be to frustrate most of them and try to upsell them on specific feature. For us, we’re really very honest in what we served when we decided to make that lifetime deal. So we said, “You’re going to get all the upgrades because that’s why we decided. We launched with you guys, you helped us have the foundation of our community and we’re okay with that.”

Guillaume Moubeche:

We could be very sneaky and try to say, “Yeah, if you want to get that type of feature, you have to become a paying customers.”, and I’m sure we could convert some of them, but I wouldn’t feel fair. So I prefer having them as really strong advocates and just keep focusing on getting more people because the market is so huge we don’t really need to go after those customers, I think.

Nathan Latka:

And, remind everyone, so when you did launch on AppSumo, what was the lifetime plan? Do you remember how much?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So it was they were paying $49 to get the lifetime. At that time, we were not charging any of our customers, so it was actually the best way for us to launch and start making money, get users, get feedback, and within two weeks we made something around $170,000, which was really good to start a SaaS company, it’s quite nice.

Nathan Latka:

That was net to you after the AppSumo fee, right?

Guillaume Moubeche:

No, no, no. So that was revenue and AppSumo took around 70% of that, but then we did another round with AppSumo and we made another $200,000 sales. And I think, so total with AppSumo, essentially, we made, I think, 150K.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, doing the math, you take 49 bucks for that lifetime deal times 8,000 customers is basically $400,000 in total sales, and if AppSumo is keeping about 70%, you would make somewhere in the 10 to, 150K from that.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah, interesting.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So again, it was a bit different percentage, but yeah, around that. Yeah.

Nathan Latka:

No. Good way to do it, if you can make the numbers work. So, okay. So 3,000 recurring customers now today, and what are they paying on average per month?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So right now they’re around, yeah, something in dollars, it could be maybe $60 or something.

Nathan Latka:

Okay. And what do they get? So we haven’t actually talked about what Lemlist does. What does Lemlist do? What are they paying for?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So Lemlist basically allows you to automate your multichannel outreach strategy. So you can start sending emails, sending messages on LinkedIn, create tasks for your sales team so they can do calls as well. That’s the latest version of Lemlist, which is called Lemlist 3.0, where we basically we have onboarded about 200 companies on that latest version.

Guillaume Moubeche:

And it’s not live for everyone yet, because initially, as you know, we were just focusing on cold emails, and now we’re expanding towards the entire sales automation because, as you can guess, we’re going a bit up-market on the customers. So yeah.

Nathan Latka:

And you’re still bootstrapped, right?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. Still bootstrapped. So basically, right now, each month we’re making a bit more than a hundred thousand dollars profits. So because our fixed costs are very small. We spend only money on the servers. We don’t spend any money on paid ads, or paid acquisition, or anything else, and our employees are contractors, so essentially it’s the biggest chunk of the fixed cost is basically the founder’s salary, but the rest is profit and in the bank, so we’re pretty happy with cash.

Nathan Latka:

So what do you, as a founder that, I assume, you and your two other co-founders, you guys own a hundred percent a company basically, right?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. We all have a third of the company.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah. So when you guys get together and go, “Hey guys, we have an extra hundred grand in the bank, now there’s 700 grand sitting in the bank.” That’s obviously not a good use of cashflow to just sit there, outside of making you feel comfortable, which there is value to that. But what do you do with it? Do you give it out as dividends? Do you reinvest it? What do you do with it?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So we take the cash for ourself. So first thing is we try to make ourselves very comfortable because, as you said, I think being in comfort with your company, I think it’s quite nice because you make smarter decision.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Second is give ourselves dividends and do some of our personal investments, so buying houses, et cetera. And then obviously, it’s a big part right now, especially with the new strategy and it’s to invest in hiring more people. So that’s why we go from 12 to 19 in the next months, it’s basically to start growing, hiring, and building better processes to grow, to keep the same growth rate, essentially.

Nathan Latka:

What would you value the company at today, if you were going to value it?

Guillaume Moubeche:

I think, to be honest, it’s basically, let’s say we’re north of two million ARR, but I think it’s seven million, seven to eight million, if I have to be very reasonable, I would say, because it would be something. If you are super reasonable on our market and based on our growth, I would say three to four X ARR is something that’s the, would say, low end, five X would be high end, so yeah.

Nathan Latka:

So if someone listening right now, there’s a lot of private equity folks that listen came and offered 7 million all cash up front. So it was a clean deal no earn out. Would you have to think seriously about that with your co-founders?

Guillaume Moubeche:

No. No, no. It’s just because our strategy is really long-term and there is so many things that needs to be changed, especially in the sales automation space, where I really feel like a lot of people have said so much bullshit about the entire sales field overall. I think there is a lot of wrong things.

Guillaume Moubeche:

A lot of people think that to be a good salesman, you need to be a man, you need to be strong, you need to play sports, et cetera, et cetera. But actually, when you look at all the studies, you see that best sales people are introvert, best salespeople are usually women, and for me, it’s just a fake image of what sales is about.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Lots of people think that sales, it’s like ABC, always be closing. Actually, it’s the opposite. You should always be helping people, try to provide as much value as possible, et cetera. And I think we have so much more to do in that space that we want to stay and grow the company for at least three to five years. And later on, when I would feel like we’ve done a great job and things are changing, maybe I’ll consider an exit.

Nathan Latka:

Can you correlate your belief that the current knowledge out there about sales is not accurate with real product decisions you made in the past four months at Lemlist? Can you talk about one of them?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, definitely. So for example, if you look at most companies, what they’re saying and their tagline is put yourselves on autopilot. First of all, that’s what they focused on. We focused on the relationship and an implementation was our key differentiator.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So from day one we implemented dynamic photos and videos that you could implement straight into your emails just to make the email more human. And we started from the ground up in the product, building our product around that, helping people build warmer relationship, giving them tips within the product.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Right now, we’re also going to start putting some gamification within the task people have to do. And because I think sales is amazing for gamification because the better you do actions and spend time on researching your prospect, the higher your booking rate is going to be, and hence, your bonus be higher as well.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So I think it’s literally the best place to have fun while doing something, and care about people and that’s basically all the things we’re implementing. So small things within the platforms that makes it more human, like little comments whenever you’re doing specific actions, et cetera, et cetera, just so people feel more comfortable and happier in their job also.

Nathan Latka:

Are customers sticking once they start paying? What’s your revenue churn look like on a gross basis?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So for me, I don’t think it’s a question we can answer straight to the point, just because I prefer answering in term of persona and churn. So basically, sales team that are with more than five salespeople, so from five to, let’s say, 30 or 50, that’s our sweet spot, and those people are not churning. We have negative net MRR churn, so something around minus five, minus 6%.

Guillaume Moubeche:

However, if you look at also a big chunk of our business, which are smaller business, so I would say startup, less than 10 people, et cetera, the churn is around maybe 10%, but the net MRR churn is basically around maybe three to 4% because we see those people, for example, as I said, they’re going to say, “Hey guys, we love the product. We’re churning because it’s August, but no worries, we’re coming back in September.”, and they come back in September.

Guillaume Moubeche:

And sometimes it’s like, “Oh yeah, we finished our campaigns. We’re going to come back in one or two months.”, and you see them come back. So we have a questionnaire when someone churns, and every time I see someone leaving, it’s usually because they’re going to come back and they’re just short on cash or just watching their spending. But for the customers we’re really targeting and where we’re really focusing, they don’t leave.

Nathan Latka:

What are you paying, fully-weighted, to get a new $80 a month customer, would you say?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So our CAC, it’s difficult because, as I said, we don’t spend anything on ads. So our CAC is more linked to, let’s say, the time we spent and based on our salaries. So I don’t really put a number on it, to be honest.

Nathan Latka:

Yeah.

Guillaume Moubeche:

I could say, based on-

Nathan Latka:

How many community managers you have or something.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah, exactly. So for example, our sales rep, for example, she’s going to bring, so I would say, yeah, it depends, again, on the size of the customers, but she can bring maybe 40 to 50 new seats every month. So it’s something around two K divided by 50 UC. So it’s 40 bucks, something like that.

Nathan Latka:

Obviously, those make a lot of sense. Last question I want to talk to you about before we wrap up, there’s a lot of B2B SaaS brands that are trying to create communities. Some just flop and it’s horrendous. Others do extremely well. I’d put you in the extremely well category, just watching you build community.

Nathan Latka:

There is no secret. It’s hard work and it’s clear it takes a lot of your time, but where should a founder that wants to do what you do in terms of community building, where should they spend the majority of their time?

Guillaume Moubeche:

To be honest, I think it’s really, first, it’s spending time with your users and understanding what their need is. And then, it’s keep providing value and don’t get discouraged because, right now, when people go to our communities, I see almost 10,000 people, they see the videos that I post get thousands of view, a lot of engagement, they’re like, “Oh yeah, it’s a great community.” If you scroll down to the very, very bottom of the videos, I was posting videos with 10 views, one comment.

Nathan Latka:

I remember those and I’m like, “I’m going to watch carefully and see if he stays consistent, and that’s going to be the leading indicator of if two years from now, these are going to be getting 10K views.”

Guillaume Moubeche:

Yeah. So you see, it’s really, I think, about consistency. And again, for me, community has never been something where I wanted to measure the ROI. I just know within me that it’s going to bring something longterm, and if I keep providing value to our users, because I see a lot of people and a lot of companies that want to be super data-driven and I like it. But I think in some cases it’s not possible.

Guillaume Moubeche:

For example, if you just say, “Okay, what’s the benefit of someone in the community?” You can measure people in the community that became customers, fine, that’s a good indicator. But do you measure all the people from the community that are talking to other people about your brand? So you’re going to put that in word of mouth when actually it comes from the community.

Nathan Latka:

Yup.

Guillaume Moubeche:

So for me, it’s a bit complex, and I think it’s, at some point, as a business owner, when you think you’re doing the right thing, you just go with it and stick to it.

Nathan Latka:

Tactical question here. Where in your onboarding process do you let people know about the Facebook community and encourage them to join?

Guillaume Moubeche:

It’s around the second email, I think. Yep.

Nathan Latka:

Okay. Which is how many days, usually, after they start the trial?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Two days. Two days. Yeah.

Nathan Latka:

Two. Interesting.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Two days after the… Yeah.

Nathan Latka:

Do you know off the top of your-

Guillaume Moubeche:

We really want to push people to the community.

Nathan Latka:

Do you know off the top of your head, if you send a hundred of those emails in a day how many will go join the community?

Guillaume Moubeche:

I think, yeah, around 10%W we have 10% click rates, so it’s around that number.

Nathan Latka:

That’s healthy. And why Facebook versus a Slack group or [inaudible 00:23:06], or one of these other platforms, LinkedIn groups?

Guillaume Moubeche:

So LinkedIn groups are terrible. LinkedIn, they are so bad with it. The reach is just very, very sad. I think Facebook is great because you can do live stream in Facebook and you get also, all the basically live streaming in Facebook is very easy because you have people asking question. You also keep the video on Facebook. So you have the like, the social proofs, et cetera. That’s something I don’t see in Slack, it’s basically the social proof, which I think sometimes is lacking.

Guillaume Moubeche:

And for example, I know that everyone goes on Facebook and on Messenger, whereas I wouldn’t go on Slack just to chill and be in a very friendly way. I have some Slack communities that I visit, but my life is more on Facebook, if I want to see updates from friends. Instagram as well, but still.

Nathan Latka:

All good. You guys have got to check out this guy’s Instagram. He’s going to make you feel… I was telling him, he makes me feel fat, and tired, and sleepy, with all the running, and canoeing, and basketballing, and all this stuff.

Nathan Latka:

All right, Guillaume, let’s wrap up with the famous five. Number one. What’s your favorite business book?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Actually, I read, Lost And Founder from Rand Fishkin. Really enjoyed it, so I highly recommend it.

Nathan Latka:

Number two, is there a CEO you’re following or studying besides Rand?

Guillaume Moubeche:

I like to follow you, Nathan, to be honest.

Nathan Latka:

I’m all kinds of crazy. Be careful.

Guillaume Moubeche:

No, no, really, because in term of content creation and also how you manage your schedule and everything, I think it’s quite impressive.

Nathan Latka:

Thank you. That’s nice of you. Number three, besides Lemlist, what’s your favorite online tool for building the company?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Notion. Notion is really the best tool for the team-building processes, et cetera. It’s our go-to tool, yeah.

Nathan Latka:

Guillaume, how many hours of sleep do you get every night?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Eight. A good eight. Yeah.

Nathan Latka:

That’s good. And situation? Married, single, kids?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Single.

Nathan Latka:

Okay. No kids running around?

Guillaume Moubeche:

No kids that I know of.

Nathan Latka:

All right. And how old are you, Guillaume?

Guillaume Moubeche:

I’m 29.

Nathan Latka:

29. All right, last question. What’s something you wish you knew nine years ago when you were 20?

Guillaume Moubeche:

Start your own company sooner. Just go out there, fail, fail, and then one day eventually you’ll get there.

Nathan Latka:

Guys, Lemlist is helping sales team do sales the right way. You don’t have to be extroverted, you don’t have to be crazy, you don’t have to always be closing. You can just add value. He’s building a product with that in mind.

Nathan Latka:

They were doing about $600,000 in terms of ARR back in December of 2019. Now, just call it eight, nine months later, they’re already up to about two million in AAR with eyes on 2.5 or three million in ARR by the end of this year.

Nathan Latka:

They’ve done this all bootstrapped profiting almost a hundred grand per month going to the bottom line. Team of 12 people, five engineers, one quota-carrying sales rep, plan to expand the team here to introduce some new product lines, but recently Lemlist 3.0, just came out, encourage you guys to check it out.

Nathan Latka:

Guillaume, thanks for taking us the top.

Guillaume Moubeche:

Thanks a lot, Nathan.

Nathan Latka:

One more thing before you go. We have a brand new show every Thursday at 1:00 PM Central. It’s called Shark Tank for SaaS. We call it Deal or Bust. One founder comes on, three hungry buyers. They try and do a deal live. And the founder shares backend dashboards, their expenses, their revenue, ARPU, CAC, LTV. You name it, they share it, and the buyers try and make a deal live. It is fun to watch, every Thursday, 1:00 PM Central.

Nathan Latka:

Additionally, remember, these recorded founder interviews go live. We release them here on YouTube every day at 2:00 PM Central, so make sure you don’t miss any of that. Make sure you click the subscribe button below here on YouTube, the big red button, and then click the little bell notification to make sure you get notifications when we do go live.

Nathan Latka:

I wouldn’t want you to miss breaking news in the SaaS world, whether it’s an acquisition, a big fundraise, a big sale, a big profitability statement, or something else, I don’t want you to miss it.

Nathan Latka:

Additionally, if you want to take this conversation deeper and further, we have by far the largest private Slack community for B2B SaaS founders. You want to get in there. We’ve probably talked about your tool if you’re running a company, or your firm, if you’re investing. You can go in there and quickly search and see what people are saying.

Nathan Latka:

Sign up for that at nathanlatka.com/slack. In the meantime, I’m hanging out with you here on YouTube. I’ll be in the comments for the next 30 minutes. Feel free to let me know what you thought about this episode and if you enjoyed it, click the thumbs up.

Nathan Latka:

We get a lot of haters that are mad at how aggressive I am on these shows, but I do it so that we can all learn. We have to counter those people. We got to push them away. Click the thumbs up below to counter them and know that I appreciate your guys’ support. All right, I’ll be in the comments. See ya.